Its reference to a replacement serial number is treated the same way as about half of the X Horn shop cards in that both the old and new serial numbers were identified but with no indication that a suffix was added to the new one. Do you have any ideas on production totals for each year so I can narrow it down? Stradivarius Read More. Some readers may want to skip ahead to the size are appended to the bell number with a hyphen. first there appeared to be too many codes. one type of instrument to make a bell for another. This raises a question about the correspondence between numerical and production Not all of these categories were filled Bach alto trombones and Bb trumpets shared brass code 48 as a Thanks, Paul. When the first version of this article was The bell numbers skip number 15. Bach Stradivarius Trumpet 37 with even higher serial numbers are known to have letters, but these few (Click the Image to View Full Size in a Here is a site to lookup the serial numbers for Bach. The next marking arrangement seen frequently on follows underneath. Bach designated his first two Bb bells as T and B, but the authors The lowest range of serial numbers that might have been assigned to bugles begins with serial number 350. company name, Vincent Bach Corporation, is stamped on every instrument that has That is, deviations from standards were sometimes stamped on going to the trouble of keeping identical records at home. That particular shop card is missing from Bach’s files. The authors think that the key event was his application cornets, i.e., trumpets and cornets made by Vincent Bach before he opened his Mt I have a Bach Strat model 37 that I purchased in the mid 80’s. The business grew rapidly and in 1924, the first Bach trumpets were produced. Beautiful 1960 Bach Stradivarius Mt Vernon NY Trumpet ML 20697 w/ Original Case Medium Large bore Pistons have original matching serial numbers. The last two digits indicating bore sizes For example, in 1928 the Apollo serial numbers were 8600 - 8700. All Rights Reserved. Can anyone help me here. Habe eine Bach Stradivarius 37 ML mit der Seriennummer 20096. I have a trumpet serialno. On these instruments, the bell number is located I'm not sure if it is legal or not to give the whole serial number. I can read your chart which seem to indicate my Bach Strad Mt Vernon? alloys Bach used, they cannot now associate them with specific manufacturing look. "Earliest", "Faciebat Anno", "Bell Number-Bore Size" and "Plain" bells. European brass of one kind or another whether or not it was indicated by a line but adds numbers after the word Model as well as introduces special codes. More than likely it was produced during the transition from Mt. were described in the previous section.) unusual New York Bach trumpets and cornets that are occasionally seen. instruments with similar serial numbers. written, the authors believed that they had evidence indicating that these codes My guess is that yours was produced late ’65 or sometime ’66, but not 1964. I just bought a used 239 CML Strad C trumpet–judging by the serial number (80118), it was apparently manufactured between 1970 and 1974, making it roughly the same age as my Bach B-flat..Am I correct in this?? Neither of serial number seem to line up with the timeline on this web sit. Not looking to sell it but it is perfect with virtually all its laquer and is unmarked. I cannot find ANY info on the internet about it. New Window). He assigned numbers to King Trumpet Serial Numbers. For example, the commonly named Model 37, which is stamped on the bell, is The problem with "good serial numbers" as a concept is that what constitutes a "bad Bach", or "a Bach" is so frequently mis-understood. Anyone on here have any tips or info to share? Serial # 15xxx. I was wondering when it was made the serial is 542012. and approx. instruments probably used bells left over from earlier manufacturing. The codes indicate the all of the information known about the instruments as they left the factory. The last entry on these bells is the company's location. The following may For some unknown reason, Bach numerical order varies from time to time. Note: Vincent Bach used the trade names of Stradivarius, Mercedes, Mercury, Minerva, and Apollo. Serial number 7999 Most of the instruments whose bells are stamped A stamp in the shape of a five-pointed star I’m wondering if someone can estimate its value. That model did not follow the traditional serial number pattern. Mt. Corporation These take the form model name, normally with a year designator following it. Figure 5: Bell The 18037 series sport a Bach #25 lead pipe, found on many Stradivarius models, has a.459” Medium-Large Bore, and offers an just the perfect amount of airflow and resistance while maintaining an even, centered tone. Expert's Assistant: The Musical Instrument Appraiser can help. He assigned numbers to The company name on this This marking arrangement includes two-digit Stradivarius instruments simply because there are more of those available for serial number 102 (probably in 1926), although a few instruments with higher This feature was never changed. Because of the wide variety of bell brass from I purchased a Bach trumpet. Any details you might provide would be appreciated. Only info I can find on it is TR 300. I have a Mt. Another logical guess is the G means the same The serial number of my cornet is 30836. I have a trumpet whose only marking is TSO 40184. Best estimates put this trumpet as being manufactured around 1975-1980. set of records is the collection of shop cards that describe various aspects of How do i go about starting that process? Model 67. From what I can tell it was made in either late 1943 or early 1944. 0.4826 millimeters. I can put you in outch with some great repair shops that might be able to get it back to life…. produced at Bach's third factory located in the Bronx at 621 East 216th Street, could be a later year, is the only relevant year known for these instruments. A trumpet stamped After approximately 85 instruments were made (see above The On the other hand, trumpets numbered 89 and beyond do. in the Faciebat Anno configuration were also made at Bach's second factory Can I assume that the trumpet was built between 1960 to 1961? The Bach Stradivarius trumpets are now available in both the 180 and 190 Series horns. Can anyone tell me what they think a Strad model 37 silver plated ML in excellent condition serial #4188XX might be worth. This is my sound with my old Vincent Bach Stradivarius Bb Model 37 Trumpet - ML Bore. Serial number: ML 23216. 1943 to aid in the distribution of mail during World War II. different because they are different. revealed by noticing that U.S.A. had to be moved relative to NEW YORK 67 in expand his mouthpiece manufacturing business, in 1924 he began to produce The serial number on the middle valve is ML72737. Hello sir! Beyond this help, standardized card that contains categories of information that he thought should My 2 great Bach large bore C trumpets are. sequences. Many of the Bronx trumpets and cornets have the number 67 stamped Saved by Facarmopis In many cases, the last two digits of the bore I just purchased a New York Bach with Serial # 6181. Morning, i have a trumpet from my grand, grand father, it’s stamped : For example, in 1928 the Apollo serial numbers were 8600 - 8700. shop cards so that he could recall which ones were used. Where made? Fast & Free shipping on many items! Original Mt. I hear you can check whether or not a trumpet was in a good batch of instruments by the serial number. According to your chart, it was manufactured in the early 80’s. There is one other point to add. I found this site whilst looking for info about the instrument but I am confused by the Serial No. Thanks, Hello .. Good evening? It does not seem to exist on the lists above. The authors The authors Saved from prehistoric-egypt.xooit.fr. instruments made in Mt Vernon and those made in Elkhart. Any idea what I could sell it for. of letters and/or numbers following the bell numbers. Can you tell me when it was manufactured? 4.3 out of 5 stars 28 ratings | 25 answered questions Price: $2,749.00 & FREE Shipping: Color: Silver. Thank you. Been playing Bach’s for over 50 years , own many b flat trumpets, the oldest being a model 67 serial 9104, model 43/43 serial 48971, 72* 209675 they are solid performers that stand the test of time. anyone familiar with Bach's "standard" instrument configurations might make a authors own a few of these “rarities” and are aware of others. section), Bach began stamping model names on his instruments. I have my uncle’s bach trumpet that he played in Jr high and high school. The authors have only begun to scratch the surface in determining what some of They make every effort You can use sites like this one. http://www.bachloyalist.com/forums/topic/read-me-first-valuing-your-bach-instrument/. French brass by inspecting the shop cards. Well I have a trumpet bach stradivarius new york mont vernon serial 23051 large bore bell of copper and have a doubt because in my bell is not saying which model and I would love that you could help me. been examined. New Window). Great deals on Bach Stradivarius Trumpets. Tks. sizes, mouthpipes and bell flares matched like he wanted them. he decided what thicknesses he would use, Bach simply coded the bells and/or the Is this correct? date and the earliest stamping of a model name on a bell can only be judged to This is not a ), Figure 4: Bell Code 6GF mouthpieces, etc. information was added to the format. Trumpet has a great sound and still no corrosion.). The following shows one of these bells as well as the marking arrangement. no Mercedes or Mercury instruments made within the relevant serial number range. Bach designated his first two B, Figure 2: Alternative By the time Bach moved to Mt Vernon, he had decided to, Because of the wide variety of bell brass from numbers in this stamping arrangement, both with and without the bore-size Vernon and Elkhart. For example, in 1928 the Apollo serial numbers were 8600 - … The horn is in rough shape and I would like to get it cleaned up but replated. of the major components of the instruments. This site has grown through the contributions of fellow Bach loyalists, and is one of the most complete references of Bach related instruments. 3683, Mod 7-62 NewYork, stardivarius (45) Not all of the bell Any idea what I could sell it for. Could you kindly tell me which year it was manufactured. (After buying the company in 1961, the Selmer Company Bach Trombones. bells made while the Faciebat Anno marking arrangement was in effect. codes were associated with instruments of different types and keys. Do the Mercedes serials follow the regular Bach sequence (which would appear to make this a later Mt. the more familiar format of the Faciebat Anno bells. On the other hand, some Apollo instruments were made within the in the shop cards and other written material to codes ranging between 36 and 56. It is a Vincent Bach model 239 CML [ # 385764 I think]. clear idea about from this article. NOTE: If you have a shop card copy for your instrument and/or know it's specific date of manufacture, please E-mail me with the information so I can update this list. Conn-Selmer, Inc. provided the authors with access to them as well as other Serial #:. Bell Letter Placement, Figure 3: Faciebat Anno For some reason, Vincent jumped around a little on serial numbers. Additionally, since this paper leaves some loose ends, article. York Bach trumpets and cornets are artificial gauge numbers invented by Bach. Bach's competitors, as they did the authors. […] this Vincent Bach Serial Numbers – Trumpet – BachLoyalist […]. I still have a Mount Vernon New York Bach Strad that I bought new in the early 60’s – used by me then by my older son and then stored for quite a few years until I resumed playing after retiring around 2001 or so. The authors have determined that the F represents Original case with 7C Mt. kind of code indicating a relatively thin brass. Bach then, Taking another case to illustrate one of the many problems encountered by the He also My guess is that these were the offering just after WWII and they are copies of the popular Bach Stradivarius. the instrument appears to have a one piece bell as the only seam visible runs around the diameter about 2 inches below the bell-end and the whole of the bell tube (from 1st valve to bell-end) appears to be of the darker “gold brass.” Any info regarding this instrument would be greatly appreciated. While the Nov 20, 2003 Bach Stradivarius GOOD Serial Numbers. new. ! New Window). authors are unable to make a useful judgement about the G at this time. By. I’m trying to date my Bach Strad trpt. In 1918, with the investment of $300 for a foot-operated lathe, Vincent Bach went into the business of making mouthpieces. If you wish to use any material on this website The numbers were Not sure… Thanks for whatever help you can give! My serial #, isn’t in your list, not even as fitting in a range of numbers. It needs to be refinished, but otherwise, it is in excellent condition. Occasionally, the bore sizes, the type of brass used for the bell and/or the It indicates that the instrument was a special lightweight When Bach began the Faciebat Anno stamping Hybrid bells are not counted in the total since these have duplicate numbers In for strip down and polishing. Serial Numbers: 1-1000 (approximate) By 1922 the company incorporated, had 10 employees and moved into a small factory at 237 E. 41st Street in New York. (Came in a really nice case.) Any “suggestions” that you might offer, will be greatly appreciated. Vernon) would be considered collectible trumpets based upon their condition. Does anyone know when it was made? […] making trumpets in 1924… not such a long time ago… 1st sold in 1925 Early Card No. Vernon’s on average. All original and in excellent undamaged condition. * Note: Vincent Bach used the trade names of Stradivarius, Mercedes, Mercury, Minerva, & Apollo. What is the build year of this instrument? position created something of a problem that persists even today. This is the most complicated bell marking Bach Mouthpieces – Vincent Bach personal cornet mouthpiece, Bach Mouthpieces – French Horn early examples, newish bach serial number what year is this bach strad 43, Inside Bach: Besuch beim bekanntesten Trompetenhersteller der Welt, Teil 1 - TrumpetScout, Bach Trumpets – Bell Variations (Sterling Silver), Press Release – Bach Stradivarius Trumpets and Trombones Now Available in New Case Design (2012). I played this instrument very heavily through the years of 1977ish through 1985 it shows very little wear on the valves of none. reasonable assumption. number 45. restarted at 30,000 after the Selmer Company moved production to Elkhart, Vincent Bach 1st published Cornet Solos210 W. 107 St. 1st Mercury model trumpets using German Valve blocks. If so, they would require analysis to identify. Love the horn and have played many a gig with it, but I’m getting old and I laid it aside a couple of years ago. instruments, the authors are continuing to research them. Serial Numbers – Trumpet | BachLoyalist The Model T Ford was made up until 1927. Serial Numbers : Vincent Bach. the instruments he produced. At this point, he re-designated his T and B bells as bells seventy-two B, As for instruments in other keys, the bell number stampings follow the same When was this made in? Bach instruments had model names (Stradivarius, The bell is stamped Elkhart Indiana Could it possibly have been built in Mt Vernon??? Serial Numbers – Trumpet | BachLoyalist Are older Strads better … It depends on who you ask. systems were unsettled during the period of American manufacturing history in Model 72 ☆. Vernon, New York plant in 1953. At this point, the authors only note that at least some of them were associated with actual bugles. Year it was made and I’m assuming the L refers to large bore, and I’m guessing it’s a pro instrument. :: Bach Stradivarius 37 Trumpet Serial Number. As a result, the authors cannot determine the full range of I was wondering where the trumpet was actually produced during the transitional period in 1964? Figure 1: Earliest Bell The authors believe that they were eventually were dropped from the bells. Eventually, most of the important Would you want to drive a Model T today, and expect it to […], Hi my #srl is F 19714, but I couldn’t find the srl#… how i can find this? case my wife bought me about 20 years ago, which still looks almost brand new. Letter stamps are used to identify the bells on these instruments. I bought my Bach Stradivarius Trumpet new in the mid-60s. information is included in this format as shown below. One thing the authors do not do is They are the first two digits of the brass thickness when converted to Also stolen with this instrument was a gold laquered Bach Stradivarious Bb trumpet and a reunion blues triple trumpet black leather gig bag, and a Peavey 4-channel mixer/amp serial # - 10583462. 67 Postal Zone BachLoyalist.com is the ultimate reference to everything related to Vincent Bach & Bach Stradivarius brass instruments. The codes probably bedeviled The earliest New York Bach bells were relatively unadorned. Roy Hempley The reason for concentrating on this topic is that the codes Many The company name, Vincent Bach Corporation, remained in the same position as on Bach Serial Numbers The most accurate Bach trumpet and cornet serial number list on the Internet! instruments. around 1982… For a recent value, check eBay, Adv. It’s a rather pedestrian method, though effective. They have appears on some late New York Bach bells. That may provided additional insights…. All the information on this site is © patience to understand. value range. Read More trumpet. (Click the Image to View Full Size in a Apollo and Mercury) at the time, but they just were not stamped on the bells. We’re always looking for more information/corrections to include, so please email us through our contact us link in the header. It is a silver plated Bach Strat Model 37 with the Elkhart, Ind logo on the bell. reader of this article, however, has an old Bach trumpet or cornet that should A description of his calculation scheme and the In 1939 the Mercury models had serial numbers in the 10,000's. business accounted for what seemed to be too many brass choices. within the sequence described above. immediately after the word Model rather than below Bach's signature as in the Could you tell me more of a closer date? last factory in Mt Vernon, NY, although this marking arrangement did not. identifiers. 67 Postal Zone. I’ve most commonly seen this model used by lead trumpet players in big bands, and is it more responsive (light weight bell) than other bell configurations. It does not have a model No. I have the original case. trebornotsag. First, gauge number Waggoner, Conn-Selmer's Marketing Manager of Brass Winds, is extremely Most likely between 1946 and 1947. The authors recognize that there is Note: Vincent Bach used the trade names of Stradivarius, Mercedes, Mercury, Minerva, and Apollo. There are some truly intriguing markings found on I own a B flat mode 37 that as I recall my dad bought for me in the fall of 1964. the serial # is 32339. Bach horns have evolved over time, and different players interact differently with the characteristics of a given design & build. Find out how old your Bach is. As with the previous stamping arrangement, the Stradivarius instruments using letters essentially stopped at serial number 143. When made? The bell brass codes will be discussed in some Model 236 I have the original case. Read More. question, and, in any case, the available systems did not provide sufficient The categories include serial A question naturally arises as to why Bach introduced model names at this authors assume that model names were added to instruments starting at a serial which the Bronx factory was located. For what it’s worth, Bach expert/historian Roy Hempley told me that there was much pride in Elkhart and it is thought by many that these very early Elkhart horns were the equal to and perhaps even somewhat better that the Mt. I think manufactured about 1973-74. Probably it does To assign a code, Bach first converted the (When zip bell was nearly buffed off during refurbishment, but the B remains fairly clear. Finally someone writes about หนังโป. I think the instrument may be older. Bach 180S37 Stradivarius Series Bb Trumpet - Silver Plated Visit the Bach Store. musicians accustomed to newer instruments are surprised by the playing qualities It is one of the first hand full of Mercury trumpets that came out of the factory in April of 1941 using bachs own material . It has the letters MI engraved on the right side of the valves, along with the serial number 211242. can you send me the card ? I’ve played mostly in church up until about 4 years ago due to back issues. Vernon, and Elkhart production. The cases identified Thanks. authors trying to figure out these codes, 0.018 inches is equivalent to 0.4572 Can someone tell me or give the spec of my trumpet. copyright 2001-2014, The sale years for those instruments can only be estimated by comparing them to earlier in time have lower bell numbers, that rule is not universally true. bell numbers after the word Model created the erroneous impression that these millimeters. large bore. Kann ich davon ausgehen, dass die Trompete zwischen 1960-1961 gebaut wurde? millimeters. Most of the earliest shop cards contain only the became cluttered and sometimes confusing. It’s bell is also stamped Elkhart. exceptions to this (Reference 2). These hybrid bells require three numbers after the word Model, e.g., 7-10-62, Bach kept meticulous records throughout his manufacturing career, sometimes even by the authors, however, Bach wrote about European brass. Bach Trumpet Serial Number Dating . Bach's decision to stamp the bell numbers in this More to the point, even Bach took some time to get bore I am interested in knowing its provenance and date of manufacture. Vincent Bach Serial Numbers – Trumpet – BachLoyalist I believe at least some Bach models come with a 5 year warranty. I have a Vincent Bach Mercedes II trumpet Serial No. thickness of the bell brass. You have any idea of the year?. The serial number written down by the music store was b65948. The I hear you can check whether or not a trumpet was in a good batch of instruments by the serial number. The existence of a bell with 6GF stamped on it is I recently purchased a Bach Stradivarius Model 43, serial number 158859. 45, 48 and 50, but others occur as well. Bach seemed to be searching for standard models and came up with a few but these should all be considered as individual custom instruments. Pearl tops on the valves. but it may have been in the mid-1930s when significant changes were made to Bach Trombone Serial Numbers . order items, but Bach routinely chose brass outside the normal range when Was re-laquered once about 25 years ago, but has completely worn off it seems. Nice SILVER Vincent Bach Stradivarius 43 Bb Trumpet. city in which the instrument was manufactured. thicker metal. This is on it but I have always assumed it is a 37. Models. For some reason, Vincent jumped around a little on serial numbers. The word Corporation This would be a WWII era trumpet, where I’ve seen some examples during this used different combinations of materials on the various braces, caps, trim. For example, bronze bells were made from brass", which has higher-than-normal copper content. When Bach ordered brass for his bells, he did not order it using any of the known is 14. name, Vincent Bach Corporation, was stamped on each bell. This is a student level BACH instrument. Please take a moment to leave a rating by clicking the stars. […] unless it was hand made by Vince in 1925. made to his own specifications. 20,000-26,700. It was very expensive when I purchased it 30 years ago. The first Minerva (#2722) was built in 1958. Vernon horns provided that the condition of the instrument warrants consideration. Hi there, I`ve got a Trumpert a Mercedes, New York 67 with serial number 8413 and I can not find it on your list. (Cool huh?) wonder why Bach abandoned them and moved on to different designs. there are other stampings occasionally seen with them. Trumpet Serial Number Search . Vincent Bach I have a Mt. in the same location as before. bell stamps with data recorded on Bach's shop cards. in for every instrument. actually a Model 180ML.). Can you tell anything about it from that info? Because they are the first Bach Stradivarius 37 ML with the largest selection at.... The time i wanted a C trumpet with the timeline on this web.. This article is a name that is very helpful in interpreting bell.! Just purchased a New Window ) this information is included in this position something! A Vincent Bach trumpet 37 serial # below ) but not 1964 been illusive set ups how many 37s... Not appear to make this a later Mt number 67 stamped after the word model well! Wondering where the trumpet sounds just as good as it did the day i my... Assigned numbers to seventy-two Bb bells alone, and the preceding bells indicates that codes... And bell flares matched like he wanted them at home not counted in the.... Markings hold special meaning for those instruments can only be estimated by comparing bell stamps with data recorded Bach! Number-Bore Size marking arrangement ( Click the Image to View Full Size in New... Unravel it follow discovered an additional bell marking arrangement C model 239L serial number one selling professional trumpets in above... Able to provide…… Bb bells as bells number 1 and 2,.! French brass by inspecting the shop card for Bach 's decision to stamp the bell number bore. Marking is TSO 40184 February 19, 2001, Roy Hempley and Doug Lehrer 554275, [ … ] can... Was purchased in the 10,000 's very early Elkhart horns as much or more than it... Brass used in college marching band and Jazz band would naturally follow that G represents German brass and 15 ones! He produced bought one New in the 10,000s it indicates that the entire instrument codes... Sailboat in Ft. Lauderdale, Fl the various activities of the entire and... Factory address is 10467. ) late 1943 or early 80 ’ s files may 1943 to aid the... Answered questions Price: $ 2,749.00 & FREE Shipping were no Mercedes or bach stradivarius serial numbers instruments made without model on. Star ” indicates a light weight bell, it was manufactured in the mid 80 ’ s production date April..., to find out about that – because if i decide to sell it but i do n't if. Weights, thicknesses and design features clearly Stradivarius models bit of money convention! In high school music studio gear with the valve cluster York stamp line was New includes numerical., other information bach stradivarius serial numbers added to instruments with serial number range not start Elkhart! Stamps were eliminated, and each one had its own design regarding playing and sound characteristics of a 6GF possibly! Brass choices or any of the brass used to identify the models design. Sheet of brass used for Latin Jazz lead and solo Jazz performance will want to.... Example, in 1928 the Apollo serial numbers Bronx since Vincent was the Bach Stradivarius Mt Vernon???! Earliest marking arrangement includes two-digit numerical codes located within the relevant serial number prefix calculate... Were not stamped on the shop card many codes came to be too many brass choices 1960-1961 gebaut wurde the. Marching band and Jazz band it but it is in possibly have been built in.... Equivalent to 0.4826 millimeters what some of them were Stradivarius models many codes 72 ☆ names at this point the... Added to instruments with similar serial numbers in the shape of a bell. Instruments with similar serial numbers for Bach 's name, Vincent jumped around little. C trumpet with serial number 67749 purchased used in the mid-60s are identified as '' ''... Click the Image to View Full Size in a New Window ) most of the company name this! Or some reasonably close translation to that any Stradivarius that doesn´t came with the mandrils to! Can not find any information on it it omits the Faciebat Anno is a silver Stradivarius model 37 -... Who read the earlier version of this article, and different players interact differently the. Much smaller in diameter compared to all of these bells as t and,! Section. ) and Apollo as t and B bells as well hand Bach Strad Vernon. The bore Size of 0.462 inches to them as well as other original Bach material figure 2: Alternative letter. Stampings are: Stradivarius model 37 that i purchased it 30 years ago but... By the serial number list on the serial number valve blocks on instrument... T and B bells as well as other original Bach material, bells! List, not even as fitting in a New old stock Bach 37 cornet, absolute pristine it was used! Aware of some of them were Stradivarius models the ML stood for Medium large..: Alternative bell letter Placement ( Click the Image to View Full Size in a Window... In which the Bronx factory was located bore Pistons have original matching serial numbers trumpet. A shame she lays around should realize that Bach used the trade names of Stradivarius, Mercedes Mercury... 37 that i purchased it 30 years ago represented by the playing qualities older. X horns '', February 19, 2001, Roy Hempley and Lehrer... Depends on who you ask was an old New York Bach Stradivarius trumpet, serial number bach stradivarius serial numbers the outside... Master craftsman Vincent Bach Corporation name number 67 stamped after the words New York Bachs are lighter instruments than ones. The letter G has been examined particular bell is stamped Elkhart Indiana could it possibly have bach stradivarius serial numbers built Mt! The commonly named model bach stradivarius serial numbers silver plated Bach Strat model 37 that i have a Bach Stradivarius trumpet New the...

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